Mapping a dry cell hydrogen generator

[2012LTZ]

Hello,

I'm pretty sure I'm going to get a dry cell hydrogen generator and the company sells their package with a 'volo' chip.

Does my car have a volo chip?
Are the mechanisms controlled by a volo chip accessible thru obdc2?
Does my tune have to be rewritten to accommodate for supplemental hydrogen?

Also, when I bought mine, there was only one to buy.
Did I get the good one or the econo tune?

( I think I saw a tune for ethanol? )

 

[gdideric]

how much hydrogen does the unit produce?

 

[2012LTZ]

how much hydrogen does the unit produce?

I'm getting the bigger kit because I have a turbo.
It comes with 2 generators.
Each generator makes 2.25 LPM if you put 30 amps to it.
With two, you run like 15 amps to them each.

They are claiming 9% more horsepower WITH 33% better mileage.

Seeing as how these things use water for gas, deliver more power, burn cleaner, yada yada and there are many,
...seems places like trifecta would\should jump on top of it. I thought I saw a tune for ethanol.
I think it would create a faster tune than people just running a tune on hi test.
.....and you can use them with any fuel, even if your sonic is diesel or propane, ha.
I think hydrogen would help eliminate turbo lag too. It's just all around win-win.

[back with better info]

 

[seanp1]

Please do a build thread!

 

[sx sonic]

Interesting, I'm subscriping to this thread

 

[2012LTZ]

Please do a build thread!

I'm trying to build momentum.
Get some brighter minds than my own in here.
The place that makes these things is just down the road a spell.
I wouldn't have a problem just handing them my car.
I know they probably haven't had a 2012 turbo to test with.

Would really like to hear what BNR\trifecta thinks.

I have a feeling I'll have to adjust my map in a way outside of the ordinary.

 

[2012LTZ]

I need to find out how and if this is going to effect my trifecta tune first.

For the sensors and stuff they reprogram via connecting wires from a gizmo to the back of your odbc.
You run some kind of software and it returns the wire mapping.
I'm wondering if the gizmo they sell controls something trifecta should be dealing with, oxygen sensors?.

If I can find that out then I think I have all the stuff to start doing data pulls.
With tune and hi test, with tune and hi test and hydrogen, without tune and,

....better just wait and see.

My plans are already a bit grandiose.

 

[2012LTZ]

No such luck with trifecta.
They do not plan to support it.
bummer.
I don't know how BNR feels about it but I'm not going to let that stop me.
I know the place I'm buying the generator from will help me if I need it.

 

[Eric Smit]

ah well, worth a shot.


-Eric Smit

 

[ungawd]

I've only seen Brown's Gas (Hydroxy, HHO) used on carbeurated naturally-aspirated engines. It's hard to tell how it would behave with a turbocharged engine. A custom tune would be necessary for obvious reasons. I would assume monitoring, intercepting, and altering O2 sensor data would be the key. The manifold being plastic would be easy to tap, but it will be pressurized frequently and couldn't be used. It would need to be introduced before the turbo.

The electrical system in this car seems like it's nearly pushed to the brink as it is, so you won't be relying on much waste energy. I don't see a Hydroxy generator being that beneficial on this car. I hope you prove that wrong though.

 

[2012LTZ]

I've only seen Brown's Gas (Hydroxy, HHO) used on carbeurated naturally-aspirated engines. It's hard to tell how it would behave with a turbocharged engine. A custom tune would be necessary for obvious reasons. I would assume monitoring, intercepting, and altering O2 sensor data would be the key. The manifold being plastic would be easy to tap, but it will be pressurized frequently and couldn't be used. It would need to be introduced before the turbo.

The electrical system in this car seems like it's nearly pushed to the brink as it is, so you won't be relying on much waste energy. I don't see a Hydroxy generator being that beneficial on this car. I hope you prove that wrong though.

Spot on!

And they have a gadget to do it. I just wanted to give trifecta a shot.
I would prefer they do it. or BNR, just as maybe a project/promo mythbusters type thing, for science, ha.

Their site\image could use some help (hydroclubusa.com) but despite the cheesy george bush on velvet ebay and website image,
the outstanding feedback at ebay was the wringer for me. They have a community and all so it apparently comes with a whole bunch of like minded nuts.

EDIT ADD: I don't want to have to give up my tune to try the hydrogen.

 

[ungawd]

I read about this research at Purdue several years ago and thought initially that's what you were referring to as "dry cell" generation. I had never heard that term used before in reference to electrolysis. This would be more accurately referred to as dry being as it's a chemical reaction. I'm wondering why they're all of a sudden using dry as it is a misnomer.

 

[gdideric]

If it is dumping both the hydrogen and oxygen into the cylinder, then I see no reason for a change in tune. The hydrogen and oxygen will just recombine into water when it burns. It won't change your air fuel ratio or anything.

Honestly I'm skeptical you'll see any change at all. You are talking about 0.1% hydrogen by volume compared to the amount of air the engine ingests.

Fuel wise, you are adding 0.2 g/min of hydrogen and 136 g/min of gasoline

again, a 0.1% ratio

Now hydrogen burns at 3x the energy, but you are still looking at much less than 1% energy gain.

So from an energy standpoint, this is a total non-starter. The only gain then would be that for whatever reason the engine suddenly lost considerably less energy to heat. That is much more arcane science, and it is certainly possible. I have no idea how hydrogen would help the cycle efficiency, but to be fair, I have no idea that it wouldn't so I'll keep an open mind...

That said, log a data pull after you install it and send it to trifecta. They'll be able to see if anything is amiss. You don't have to tell them what you installed..

 

[2012LTZ]

If it is dumping both the hydrogen and oxygen into the cylinder, then I see no reason for a change in tune. The hydrogen and oxygen will just recombine into water when it burns. It won't change your air fuel ratio or anything.

Honestly I'm skeptical you'll see any change at all. You are talking about 0.1% hydrogen by volume compared to the amount of air the engine ingests.

Fuel wise, you are adding 0.2 g/min of hydrogen and 136 g/min of gasoline

again, a 0.1% ratio

Now hydrogen burns at 3x the energy, but you are still looking at much less than 1% energy gain.

So from an energy standpoint, this is a total non-starter. The only gain then would be that for whatever reason the engine suddenly lost considerably less energy to heat. That is much more arcane science, and it is certainly possible. I have no idea how hydrogen would help the cycle efficiency, but to be fair, I have no idea that it wouldn't so I'll keep an open mind...

That said, log a data pull after you install it and send it to trifecta. They'll be able to see if anything is amiss. You don't have to tell them what you installed..

Cool! I have to read down through the thread. I just got here.

Funny, everything people are talking about are the first issues I'm coming across.

Finding out that those little gizmos don't deliver enough HHO and that I would probably have to install more than two of them, which I was prepared and planning to do anyways. I think the first problem I'll hit trying to run multiple cells is the draw from my battery. I'm thinking I need to get a high output alternator and another battery but I haven't found a high output alternator for a sonic.

I'm just an old fuddy duddy that tinkers with things. Water for gas would be cool but I'm also looking at how I can use HHO to run a boiler and heat my house or generate electricity from steam.

 

[mitdr774]

Just keep in mind that the higherthe load on the electrical system, the more energy from the engine will be needed to power the system. An alternator at very low output has much less load on the engine than one with a high output. Its going to take power to make power and generally you have a net loss in the end.

 

[gdideric]

Just keep in mind that the higherthe load on the electrical system, the more energy from the engine will be needed to power the system. An alternator at very low output has much less load on the engine than one with a high output. Its going to take power to make power and generally you have a net loss in the end.

People keep saying that alternators are always producing X amps and dumping Y amps through a resistor if they aren't used...so if you can use those Y amps to make hydrogen, then you get a net gain....meh...0.3% for 30 amps...whether or not it is true, most people run out of money before you make a big dent in this one way or another...

but...without knowing how hydrogen monkeys with (or doesn't monkey with) the thermodynamics of the otto cycle i can't make any claims on efficiency one way or another.

The basic idea behind all of these HHO devices is that a normal otto cycle engine is something like 40% efficient. 60% is lost to heat. So if you can up that to 50% or whatever you can make big gains in efficiency...

The atkinson cycle engine used in the Prius is one strategy for dealing with that. There are other things as well that can help...again...whether a trickle of hydrogen is one of those things i don't know...

 

[mitdr774]

ALternators only put out what they are commanded to put out. I am not aware of any manufacture that uses an alternator that has a resistor designed to burn up energy that is not needed. The size of teh resistor needed and its heat sink would make it obvious.

Modern vehicles use a small current supplied to the alternator field windings to control the output of the alternator. The higher the supplied current the higher the output current. Problem is that when the supply current is higher it creates a stronger magnetic field inside the alternator. This field is what allows the alternator to produce power but also causes resistance.

 

[gdideric]

ALternators only put out what they are commanded to put out. I am not aware of any manufacture that uses an alternator that has a resistor designed to burn up energy that is not needed. The size of teh resistor needed and its heat sink would make it obvious.

Modern vehicles use a small current supplied to the alternator field windings to control the output of the alternator. The higher the supplied current the higher the output current. Problem is that when the supply current is higher it creates a stronger magnetic field inside the alternator. This field is what allows the alternator to produce power but also causes resistance.

Thank you for confirming that.

 

[AxelRipper]

I'll just leave this here:

why all "water car/hydrogen generators" are scams - The Ranger Station Forums