Did GM include some sort of automatic self destruct?

[rodslinger]

I'm starting to think that either GM has included some random self destruct feature in my Sonic or I'm part of a hidden marketing test to see how much crap will break in a car before you just get rid of it.

Don't get me completely wrong here. I like the Sonic. I hate it sometimes too. Early in the cars life it had a few issues. Issues that weren't too far out of the ordinary but issues I still thought were slightly excessive for the age and mileage of a car. Fuel pump, water pump, turbo, pcv, valve cover and battery before four years and 50k miles doesn't seem the best it should be.

But lately this thing is really falling apart. Five years and 70k miles. Another water pump bad, wheel bearing went out, both seat heaters out, rear defroster out, AC leaking, left front CV axle clicking, shifter button sticking and apparently as of today, another PCV failure.

I think this single Sonic has had more component failures than literally every car I've owned in my lifetime combined. I guess there is always a bright side. Parts for it are cheap.

 

[sarasube]

what year?
that is a hell of a list that went wrong,

thanks

 

[JTee2017]

Well, sounds pretty common for a 1.4L Turbo.

The PVC issue especially. Read the fourm. Ther eis a rectn thread detailling how to be proactive checking it since it gets dirty and clogged witl oil and combustion residues.

Same with water pump, T-stat. water outlet.

A wheel bearing can go anytime.

 

[rodslinger]

Well, sounds pretty common for a 1.4L Turbo.

I think that is a big problem honestly. When do we stop considering common problems as acceptable problems? These issues started in 2011 on the Cruze and should have been engineer corrected LONG ago. These owners of 2015 and later models should in no way be seeing any of these issues.

But both seat heaters, AC, rear defrost and shifter button too? The car spent 99% of it's life on a 25 mile round trip work commute for my wife. Parked in a shady parking deck at work and a shady garage at home. The roads driven on are smooth and we'll maintained too.

Again. The car really has had more real failures than pretty much everything else I've owned combined. I'm not mad. Just disappointed. I had hopes that GM of old was gone and forgotten. Seems they were just reincarnated in a different form.

 

[JTee2017]

I think that is a big problem honestly. When do we stop considering common problems as acceptable problems? These issues started in 2011 on the Cruze and should have been engineer corrected LONG ago. These owners of 2015 and later models should in no way be seeing any of these issues.

But both seat heaters, AC, rear defrost and shifter button too? The car spent 99% of it's life on a 25 mile round trip work commute for my wife. Parked in a shady parking deck at work and a shady garage at home. The roads driven on are smooth and we'll maintained too.

Again. The car really has had more real failures than pretty much everything else I've owned combined. I'm not mad. Just disappointed. I had hopes that GM of old was gone and forgotten. Seems they were just reincarnated in a different form.

I understand the frustration and disappointment. The truth is, many of the parts are sourced from the same vendors across different brands including foreign transplant brands. Not saying anything should be acceptable. . . . just that it is common and in the case of the PCV valve and intake manifold it has become a maintenance item. I know and realize it was also a problem with the Cruze. Same engine after all.
If you haven't kept up with the forum references, here is a thread with links that can help proactively with PCV maintenance.
PSA: 1.4L PCV System Maintenance IS Required

These are cheap, low cost cars and ALL car makers have one kind of chronic issue or another. Do some searches on Honda Fit, Toyota Yaris or Nissan CVT Continuous Variable Transmissions. I've been associated with the automobile industry for+30 years and keeping cost down is primary for all car makers whether we agree with it or not. It is not just GM.

Rather than be a victim we can look at the issues and see what there is we can do to proactively deal with it. Cleaning the PCV valves (yes 2 of them) or replacing the intake about every 50K miles is not that expensive. Cleaning the PCV valve every year with some CRC MAF Sensor cleaner would lengthen that greatly.

I did not like that and is one reason I bought the 1.8L in the Sonic. It's just that more parts on cars these days fall into the routine maintenance or replace category. The good news is that for a few hundred dollars or 3 to 6 years the cars can be kept running well.

And the good news also is these parts are user serviceable, unlike some things on Toyota, Honda, Mazda and others.

I looked at these things before even buying a Sonic. It behooves all of use to do some diligent research before buying any vehicle.
I did before buying our Sonic in 2017 and found that the often mentioned thermostat, water outlet, water pump, and PCV not a big deal. In the 1.8L there is also the timing belt, but many go even past the 90,000 mile point of recommended replacement. I wouldn't .


I agree, the heated set elements is another bother, but those often went out with use and age in vehicles of past years as well. Also, those can be user replaced if so inclined. The shifter button spring also is a nuisance item, but cheap repair.

I think I can say that if you bought some other small economy car you would be dealing with much more costly ans serious repairs and maintenance from engine issues to transmissions and more.

Our daughter has a 2014 Sonic LT 1.8L with about 80,000 miles on it. I replaced the Evap Purge solenoid valve on it $22 Amazon, changed the auto trans fluid, and it will need brakes and the timing belt. Maintenance items.

She has had a couple warranty repairs. . the thermostat was still covered no charge. And I think sway bar links . . no charge.
From the way she drives her car, frankly I am amazed at the few repairs she has had.


I do not know how many newer cars you currently have, but you will likely find that any car made starting in 2010 or so, will have more repairs than what we are used to going back before that. Reasons for this are many. One is, IMO, the focus is to supply more "tech" in cars which is not necessarily cheap, so cost are cut elsewhere. And most newer cars have GDI engines and more complex engine tech is coming soon. These cars are likely to be subject to costly failures. Why? Because this is a time auto makers are forced to obtain even more stringent MPG figures than 10 or 20 years ago. So the growing pains of putting newly developed engine tech into practice will show up. That technology stresses cars in ways not seen before.


One place I see people taking short cuts is simple oil changes. I do not and would not use the oil % display as a reliable means for telling me when the oil should be changed. Many wait till very low or 0% before changing it. Some have even gone 10,000 miles and never check the oil level.
Synthetic or not, I will change my oil every 4K to 5K miles or less if it is during winter months with cold starts and short trips.

Whether you see and agree with these things or not. . . it is the reality of the automotive world today. I don't like it either, but I try and choose carefully what I buy now more than ever and realize cars have more maintenance/repair items now that in past years. It's not just GM. I have worse experiences from Toyota, Nissan and Chrysler/Dodge products.

 

[rodslinger]

These are cheap, low cost cars and ALL car makers have one kind of chronic issue or another... I do not know how many newer cars you currently have, but you will likely find that any car made starting in 2010 or so, will have more repairs than what we are used to going back before that.

That's more or less the opposite of reality. I currently own four vehicles that are newer than 2010 and have previously had two others of the same era. This Sonic has had about 5x the failures of even those other five vehicles combined. And I'm glad parts are cheap as with everything else I'll fix it myself. But there are a lot of people here that have to rely on a third party for repair and get socked into debt for crap that really shouldn't be failing in the first place. A water pump or PCV valve isn't something new or mysterious. They've been making them long enough to know what works and what doesn't so failures on these items at the level we see isn't acceptable.

Chronic issues are items like damn near every Ford in the 90's leaking AC refrigerant due to their crappy spring lock connectors. Or every GM N-Body having to have the rear brake calipers replaced every 30k miles because they stick. How about almost ALL older Honda Accords that WILL end up on a tow truck with a bad igniter.

And MORE maintenance or repairs? Absolutely not. Sure the OEM's want to save money but reducing a warranty expense saves them money also. There was a time not very long ago when all of these cars had distributors with rotors, caps and wires that loved to short out when wet or with high humidity. Or the fact that fuel management, oil quality, emissions controls and mechanical design from even 10 years back on many cars wasn't as good leading to the need for more frequent spark plug service, oil changes, transmission fluid services, throttle body cleaning and other wallet thinning processes. Suspension design on many new cars can lead to them running almost their entire lifespan without even needing an alignment adjustment.


Cars today don't need (and shouldn't need) 25% of the maintenance or repairs they needed 15 years ago.

 

[JTee2017]

" - Cars today don't need (and shouldn't need) 25% of the maintenance or repairs they needed 15 years ago. - "

That's a nice thought, not sure statistics are working out that way. The reality is opposite of what we might all hope for. More high tech, more parts, low cost cheaper basic parts. All car makers are doing it.


I think you're preaching to the choir. I don't like how more and more newer cars require more repairs and parts sooner than years past. Not all. You are just going by your one example. Others have got Sonics that have gone many more miles with little repair. I gave you my daughters example. I won't repeat myself


I stand by my statements. It is what it is.


Suck it up or buy something else I guess. . . . .

 

[rodslinger]

This car really is the exception..... I forgot about the purge solenoid. Replaced that too.

Fixed the AC leak. It was the liquid line that runs from the compressor to the condenser. It was leaking at the compression clamp. And if that didn't leak the hose would have given away anyhow. Seems when the dealer changed the turbo last year they tweak the line just enough so that it was lightly rubbing on the fan shroud. I say it had about 1mm left before rubbing through.

Three days later the thermostat housing took a **** and puked the coolant. That part got here today so fixing that tomorrow morning.

Oddly enough the sway bar end links are original and never started clunking. I should probably order those now as they'll probably break next week.

Self destruct fully enabled. We already have other cars. Just can't do anything with this one until crap stops breaking.

 

[OssiansFolly]

Have you ever thought that maybe just your car is unlucky? What works for one, may not work for another. This was Chevy's budget car...I don't expect it to have the same quality as a higher end model does. Everything you've mentioned are cheap fixes though. You could change all those items in an hour or two in your driveway for less than $100.

In a perfect world we'd all be using the same things we did 25 years ago, but innovation happens and profits drive manufacturing. They will continue to improve things which means changing things and in doing so they need to profit to keep shareholders happy which results in cheaper materials/parts. Welcome to Capitalism.

 

[rodslinger]

Have you ever thought that maybe just your car is unlucky?.

Seriously unlucky.

Developed a misfire the past few days. Compression good. New plugs no improvement. Misfire counts all on #4 and only under medium to heavy load. New coil pack on the way as this fits secondary ignition failure symptoms and also seems common to this motor.

And yes I checked the plug boots and springs. Swapped then to see if the misfire followed the boot, spring or stayed on #4


But the AC is damn cold.

 

[OssiansFolly]

Don't use upgraded or good spark plugs. Use OEM plugs. I had issues with my GF's car where using good platinum plugs caused the problems you speak of. Not sure why, but apparently the cars have a thing for plugs other than OEM.

 

[Onslow]

To answer your question: I am reasonably convinced GM and Ford tell their materials engineers (or whatever the people who spec out what parts are made of) they have one of two options - cheap and cheaper. Same applies to whoever is managing the end degree of workmanship. Not quite as bad as the 70s but getting there.

You will see where both manufactures put their best foot forward when you own and drive whatever trucks they're selling. That's where the money is and that's where they're competing. Sucks but true.

 

[5.0]

You will see where both manufactures put their best foot forward when you own and drive whatever trucks they're selling. That's where the money is and that's where they're competing. Sucks but true.

Very true. That's why ford is dropping their cars from their lineup. There entire car sales only make up 20% for their total sales. Everything else is trucks and CUV's. And GM will follow suit. The profit margins on little compacts is only between 3-5%. At least from what I've seen reported. Where as the the high trim trucks can be over 40%. And high trims model make up over 50% of the total truck sales. I mean how many 2wd regular cab long box trucks do you see on the road? Not many.

 

[chm]

Shoulda bought a Toyota. Ive had 2 older Toyotas in the past and had very few problems with them. I bought my 92 Camry with 250k on it. I put another 39k on it before I rear ended a Jeep. Still bummed about that.

I haven’t had many problems with my Sonic. 2013 RS. 42k. Mostly long distance highway miles. The gearbox annoys me to no end though. I can’t stand the knocking when coming into 2nd gear. And the grinding is also an issue. I’ve just accepted it at this point.

Dealer says I need a lot of maintenance. Almost 800 bucks worth. I’ll pay it though, to hopefully keep the car running past 100k. I live in Texas so driving conditions are usually pretty good.

I’ll report back and let ya’ll know how it continues to perform over time.




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[suitcasejefferson]

The Sonic, and all 1996 and later GM cars as far as I know, do include several self destruct devices. Only one of them is actually built into the car, and that is the coolant. GM uses Dexcool coolant. It is known among mechanics as DEXKILL. It goes in as an orange or red liquid, then, while in the engine, slowly turns into a brown gooey, waxy substance that will plug up the entire cooling system, and destroy the engine. I have torn down many GM engines completely plugged up with this stuff. I have completely flushed out the cooling system in my 2013 Sonic, and put regular Prestone coolant in it. That was 40,000 miles ago, and so far no problems.

The other issues are in the maintenance schedule. Despite all it's technology, the Sonic engine is not that different from a Model T engine in many ways. The oil, coolant, and transmission fluid change intervals should be about the same.

I change my oil every 3000 miles, and it comes out dirty. I use Walmart Supertech full synthetic oil, but I use 10w30 instead of 5w30. You can only get about 4 qts of coolant out of the cooling system, which holds a total of 7 qts. So once a year I drain out 4 qts, and replace it with new coolant. That helps keeps the coolant fresh. I also change my auto transmission fluid every year or 30,000 miles.

The reason for GM's ridiculously long service intervals is mostly political, and I won't get into that now. If you follow them, your car will not last very long. Use common sense and change the fluids a lot more often than the maintenance schedule says.

Most of the rest of the failures is simply the result of poor design, poor engineering, poor quality materials, poor assembly, and GM's refusal to correct known problems in later models. I bought a used 2013 from a relative, who I trust, but followed the factory maintenance schedule, with 51,000 miles on it, and 40,000 miles later, I have had a ton of problems with it, even though I got rid of the DEXKILL and have maintained it properly since I bought it. I really like the car (Victory Red hatch) but the fact is that it is a cheaply made piece of junk. I personally will not buy a new or late model GM product ever again. My 1993 Chevy S10 pickup with the 4.3 engine and manual transmission that I bought new has 288,000 miles on it, with almost no problems. GM quality has gone way downhill since then.

 

[shorebreeze]

My 2014 1.4T automatic has caused basically no trouble. Not a single mechanical or electrical thing has gone wrong with it other than the ECM having to be rebooted once by turning the ignition on and off when I used a phone charger that turned out to have electrical issues. I have relatively low miles on it, only about 44,000, and while I use it for local errands, I walk to work, so it has had a fairly easy life aside from the street parking. But still, this has caused less trouble than any car I've had in the past and that includes two Prizms including one of the very reliable mid 1990s models. I'd guess my oil changes have come at approximately 5000 mile intervals or so, using mainly Mobil 1 0w30 AFE, but occasionally 5w30 in the summer. I will probably do the PCV replacement fairly soon, but other than that, it's basically a matter of deciding whether to keep the car a while longer or trade for a new Sonic to get the post-February-2015 crash safety improvements, improved ICE, and fresh warranty before GM goes completely down the SUV rabbit-hole. I'll need to make that decision fairly soon as the car will be coming due in the summer for tire, brake-pad and transmission fluid replacement.

Judging from the look of this and other threads, I maybe should consider changing to a non-GM coolant too.

I don't understand the rationale for a 10w oil at all.....I'd want something that would flow freely as soon as possible after a start. If they ever came out with 0w40, I'd certainly take an interest in that -- it's that second number that governs how high a temperature it can withstand before breaking down, important for the turbo 1.4 engine.

 

[orangeltz13]

just a thought and I am not an expert...

I found this site (Motor Oil Viscosity Grades Explained in Layman's Terms) to be very helpful in explaining oil and it's viscosity. I use Valvoline full synthetic oil in my Sonic. It has a 0W-20 rating. I bought my Sonic new with about 8 miles on the odometer in 2013. It now has 77K miles and I haven't had any problems with it. I suppose, according to what I have read on this site, I must have bought one of the "good ones". I have only had to perform the routine maintenance.

 

[GHOST]

The reason for GM's ridiculously long service intervals is mostly political, and I won't get into that now. If you follow them, your car will not last very long. Use common sense and change the fluids a lot more often than the maintenance schedule says.

I agree. I changed my Automatic Transmission Fluid @ 38,000 miles and the fluid came out PITCH BLACK; it didn't smell burnt, though. Had I followed the Owner's Manual and changed it @ 97,500 miles, I suspect my transmission wouldn't be functioning great, or at all.

I'm also strongly considering flushing my cooling system and switching over to Prestone or Peak long life green coolant. If I did, would those coolants be a suitable replacement for DEXCOOL?

 

[shorebreeze]

I found this site (Motor Oil Viscosity Grades Explained in Layman's Terms) to be very helpful in explaining oil and it's viscosity. I use Valvoline full synthetic oil in my Sonic. It has a 0W-20 rating. I bought my Sonic new with about 8 miles on the odometer in 2013. It now has 77K miles and I haven't had any problems with it. I suppose, according to what I have read on this site, I must have bought one of the "good ones". I have only had to perform the routine maintenance.

I think you're pushing your luck with the 20.....GM's "Dexos" recommendation on both blended and full synthetic calls for a 30, with 0w, 5w and I believe 10w all acceptable. I definitely would be uncomfortable with the 20 on a turbo; if the 1.8 runs cooler than the turbo you might get away with it but I'll defer to someone who actually knows about the 1.8.

 

[boostiboo]

i understand yalls frustration. I left for deployment with only the need for a new turbo, and possibly new valve cover (constant squeal) i come back to a friggin grocery list of problems. a coolant explosion that leads me to either the thermostat or water pump or both (probably replacing both) a possible complete pcv failure (works out since i have a new ported IM and i was alreday going to replace the valve cover) an erratic idle, an even deader turbo, an exhaust leak i cant track down, fuel pressure issues and a bunch of other random crap im not even close to drunk enough to think about.