Flex Fuel Sensor Install and Information

[ScarabEpic22]

Not to nitpick what your trying to say, but all GM cars since 2012 can run up to E15(15% ethanol). I ran over 450 gallons of 88 octane E15 in my 2012 cruze 1.4T, ran much better than the 87E10 available at most stations.

I have not ran any in my sonic yet, I wanted to get a baseline MPG with 91E0 first to see how much MPG I loose to see if my cost per mile is still lower. In my area E15 costs 70 cents a gallon less than the premium I typically run.

Eh...sure. The ECM is NOT fully configured to run E15 when it comes from GM, period. Will it run? Sure it'll run, it's still 85% gasoline. Will it run with the correct spark timing, cam timing, boost, etc? No it wont. Especially since it's not exactly E15, could be E18 or E12 which is why most people add a flex fuel sensor to know exactly what the fuel composition is for a given tank of fuel.

Did you happen to log your Cruze when running E15?

This all said, get your car tuned for it and it'll be even better. While adding ethanol to gas reduces MPG as you need to inject more in order to achieve the stoichiometric ratio for that fuel. E85 is widely known to be a much better fuel to help control IAT temps which is why it's heavily used by turbo/supercharged engines (especially in race applications). E15 wont be as good, but better than E0 or E10.

 

[nickalltogether]

^Yep. In closed loop the car can "deal with" a wide range of ethanol before it kicks a check engine light, but in open loop performance the more ethanol you add without tuning for it the "leaner" you'll be running.

 

[spacedout]

Eh...sure. The ECM is NOT fully configured to run E15 when it comes from GM, period. Will it run? Sure it'll run, it's still 85% gasoline. Will it run with the correct spark timing, cam timing, boost, etc? No it wont. Especially since it's not exactly E15, could be E18 or E12 which is why most people add a flex fuel sensor to know exactly what the fuel composition is for a given tank of fuel.
.

That would be wrong information. Again ALL GM cars can run up to E15 since 2012. Do you think GM would make that claim if the cars would be running lean? Of course we did data log the car but found there was no reason to. BTW I work in the ethanol industry and have tested(data logged) many, many new cars on E15. We have yet to find any car that claims to be able to run E15 that have had any issue at all.

Its interesting to note GM released the City Express van in 2015 which is now their only vehicle that is not compatible with E15. However this is a Commercial vehicle not something the public would buy. E15? This chart kind of says it all | ExxonMobil's Perspectives Blog

The EPA claims all 2001 and newer cars can run E15, however the auto manufactures all came out in 2011 and said we build the cars, that isn't what we recommend. Slowly they all started to be E15 capable, GM being the first with the entire fleet. As of 2017 ALL Domestic cars are E15 capable.

You must not be that familiar with E15, its most test fuel in history. Since the majority of locations E15 is dispensed from a separate E15 only hose so you will never get any E12-E18 Variable you claim. Fill from a flex fuel pump sure that can happen, however that's also why its the LAW you have to buy more than 4 gallons of E15 at once which should eliminate most of that variable.

 

[nickalltogether]

It's fine that you work in the ethanol industry, but this thread isn't the place to debate whether the Sonic can run e15 or not.

It is fact that the factory computer does not adjust commanded air:fuel ratio or timing for ethanol content from the factory. You run the same air:fuel ratio command and spark timing command whether the car has 0 or 100% ethanol in it. As I mentioned in a previous post, closed loop fueling trims fuel in or out based on what the oxygen sensors are reporting. Because lambda doesn't change for different fuel types closed loop driving is largely unaffected by ethanol content. Once the fuel trims skew greater than a certain percent the car will throw a check engine light, but that skew is greater than what you would get from running e15.

Although the car will adjust open loop fueling slightly based on ltft, it's not due to ethanol content. By all means, run whatever fuel you'd like though. Stoich on e15 and e0 are only a 6.5% difference, so not enough to make a huge difference, truthfully; even less if you compare e10 and e15.

 

[carsNskis]

BTW I work in the ethanol industry

Hey, thanks for contributing to ****ty mpg for everyone!

It's fine that you work in the ethanol industry, but this thread isn't the place to debate whether the Sonic can run e15 or not.

It is fact that the factory computer does not adjust commanded air:fuel ratio or timing for ethanol content from the factory. You run the same air:fuel ratio command and spark timing command whether the car has 0 or 100% ethanol in it. As I mentioned in a previous post, closed loop fueling trims fuel in or out based on what the oxygen sensors are reporting. Because lambda doesn't change for different fuel types closed loop driving is largely unaffected by ethanol content. Once the fuel trims skew greater than a certain percent the car will throw a check engine light, but that skew is greater than what you would get from running e15.

Although the car will adjust open loop fueling slightly based on ltft, it's not due to ethanol content. By all means, run whatever fuel you'd like though. Stoich on e15 and e0 are only a 6.5% difference, so not enough to make a huge difference, truthfully; even less if you compare e10 and e15.

Excuse me sir, I think you dropped your microphone over here...

 

[spacedout]

Stoich on e15 and e0 are only a 6.5% difference, so not enough to make a huge difference, truthfully; even less if you compare e10 and e15.

So first you say this car can't run E15, then you prove exactly why it can....

I will state the facts clear as day for you... GM SAYS THE CAR IS CAPABLE OF E15, I tend to believe them over some internet forum poster. Why would you want to mislead people saying the car will not run properly on E15??? Please read your owners manual. Page 214 Clearly says "Fuels containing more than 15% ethanol must be used only in FlexFuel vehicles." Would this not say 10% ethanol if you were correct?


I averaged 36MPG over 450 gallons used with my cruze 1.4T running E15, that's just about 17,000 miles. NO CEL or any lean conditions indicated when data logged.

 

[spacedout]

This thread isn't the place to debate whether the Sonic can run e15 or not.

I was never trying to debate, only pointing out the claimed "FACTS" posted on this thread though mostly good was slightly misleading since the car is capable of E15, NOT just E10 as indicated.

 

[DocS]

So first you say this car can't run E15, then you prove exactly why it can....

I will state the facts clear as day for you... GM SAYS THE CAR IS CAPABLE OF E15, I tend to believe them over some internet forum poster. Why would you want to mislead people saying the car will not run properly on E15??? Please read your owners manual. Page 214 Clearly says "Fuels containing more than 15% ethanol must be used only in FlexFuel vehicles." Would this not say 10% ethanol if you were correct?


I averaged 36MPG over 450 gallons used with my cruze 1.4T running E15, that's just about 17,000 miles. NO CEL or any lean conditions indicated when data logged.

I hate to break it to you but he previously stated that the car can run e15 without throwing a code.

" Yep. In closed loop the car can "deal with" a wide range of ethanol before it kicks a check engine light, but in open loop performance the more ethanol you add without tuning for it the "leaner" you'll be running."

Not the quotes on the word leaner as well. The application he seems to be talking about isn't whether or not the car will run it but will it be the optimal situation for performance tuning. He actually says that a 5% variation is acceptable, he uses a tahoe as a vehicle where this is cool and our cars, if unmodified, would not blink a single light about it. But if you want to squeeze performance out of it then a 5% variance is not acceptable.

You claim that you didn't want to debate yet that is exactly what you've been doing this entire time.

Sent from my LGLS740 using Tapatalk

 

[2014 Blue RS]

I've got the Elite tune and 42# injectors + the braided lines. Guess I'm still not there yet.

 

[ScarabEpic22]

Bump from the past, 13575575 is the GM part number for 1 of the wires for the ECM, not 5. (Also comes with a 18-22awg butt connector.) Make sure to look wherever you purchase it from and confirm if it's 1 or 5 wires!

 

[skurtov]

Bump from the past, 13575575 is the GM part number for 1 of the wires for the ECM, not 5. (Also comes with a 18-22awg butt connector.) Make sure to look wherever you purchase it from and confirm if it's 1 or 5 wires!

Huge thanks to you. Gonna e85 this summer.

 

[ScarabEpic22]

Huge thanks to you. Gonna e85 this summer.

No prob, honestly after ordering this one I remembered I've got multiple E38/67/78 connectors from other harnesses that I can grab 2 pins out of. Heck of a lot cheaper and already have them!