For 14.9, what would be the best road?

[wy2sl0]

So I just picked up my 2012 Sonic LTZ today with only 22,000km's on it.

I have read a ton and already have a very good understanding of vehicles and what mods do what. To be honest, the car doesn't really feel any faster, actually maybe slower, than my stock 2006 Civic 5 speed I just traded in, which is kind of surprising. Either way, here is what I am thinking.

-Downpipe WITH a cat, I won't run catless for moral reasons.
-Stock catback, I don't want to deal with excessive noise or drone.
-Stock intake, as I read the stock already flows more than enough for the motor up to around 200hp?
-Either a water injection kit (water only for knock and lowered egt's), or the MPFab intercooler upgrade.
-Tune. Here is where I am stuck. The trifecta and vtune's aren't really dyno tuned. All vehicles I have known in the past have been meticulously tuned for the safest AFR's without detonation, yet the two main tunes everyone runs are essentially base tunes with small adjustments. Am I wrong in saying that?

Either way, I would like to hit 14's if for say I was able to rip a sub 2.2 60'.

Any advice or criticism is welcome. Thanks everyone.

 

[RauBurger]

1) There are 2 cats in this car, the downpipe has the first, which I believe is really only because of california, and the second is right before the cat back. mpfab makes the "anaconda" which removes the first cat, but replaces the second cat with a higher flowing unit. The downpipe, midpipe, and second cat are where most of the gains come from in the exhaust system come from.
2) This is fine, it doesn't restrict much until you get to the mid 200hp it seems. (based on mpfabs testing)
3) mpfabs intake would like to have a word with you about the no gains thing. see the dyno sheet for it on his site
4) don't know much about this.
5) I've been running trifecta without problems for around 9 or so months now, many longer. I believe they do there base tune on the dyno, and adjust from there. Seems to work, but I am no means an expert on this.

You can also, somewhat easily, turn this into a flex fuel engine and get more gains from that. People have been able to get past 200hp at the wheels with this. Take more money and possibly a clutch upgrade however.

EDIT: also check out the dyno thread and the querter mile thread to get an idea of what you can do.

 

[Swordsmith]

The various tunes (trifecta is teh most popular but far from the only one) people are running are actually very large improvements over the stock tune for a couple reasons.

First is that the stock tune deliberately and with malice aforethought reduces the power your engine produces to that available on a hot summer day. This was done, we are told, in order to provide a consistent driving experience (or, to put it another way, so we don't buy the car in the middle of a cold winter, and then take it in to the dealer because it is acting sluggish come spring). At any rate, all the tunes remove this restriction, so you get what the 1.4T can actually provide.

Second, and this is directly related to the first point, any of the mods you do will provide you practically no additional power, because, again, the stock tune will just say no no, you don't want all that extra power, you want the warm summer day amount of power.

This works, in part, because you don't have a gas pedal, or throttle, you have a "torque demand" pedal. So the tune just assumes that you want a set amount of torque at a set pedal position, and if that means that, floored, your demand is only 2/3rds of what the car can produce, then you get 2/3rds what the car can produce, never more. (oversimplifying, but truthy)

That's just the easy mods, by the way, if you get serious, then the car will actually run worse after a mod, rather than better, as the stock tune will not know what to do at all.

Another thought about tunes. Most of them are not just stock minor changes. Yes, there are such tunes, and if you aren't doing much, they are very effective, mostly for the reasons 1 and 2 above. But most of the tunes feature data logging, which means you get the tune, run it on your car, record the results, send that data file in, and the tuner adjusts the tune to fit what your car is actually doing. A couple of iterations of that and you have a car that is... well fine tuned is too generous, but at least semi-custom tuned.

You could get Bully Dog and do the tuning yourself, or find yourself a dyno tuner within reasonable driving distance, and get a better tune than any of the over-the-web tuners can offer, but barring that, the data logging tunes are actually pretty good. Even the canned tunes, like Trifecta "budget" are A LOT better than the stock tune, that's for sure.

 

[laborsmith]

Swordsmith, that has to be the best summary of the situation you, I, or anyone else on this forum has posted.

But to the OP, although Swordsmith is correct as far as he goes, he leaves out the benefit of using premium fuel. A tune of any source will help but to get the most benefit of any tune you will need to use premium fuel.

And yes, I am Trifecta tuned, as I believe the combination of fuel and tune gives the best result.


Laborsmith

 

[Yosemite Sam]

I agree with both of the Smiths. Start with a tune that allows you to datalog then as you add mods you can adjust the tune.

By the way, welcome to the family wy2sl0!!

:banana:

 

[Swordsmith]

Fuel is another issue, and I was already perilously close to seeing the dreaded TL;DR.

The 1.4T is labled as running on 87 octane. And it does. Everyone on the interwebs will tell you that if your car is designed for 87, there is no benefit to running 89 or 91 or 93 or whatever. This is true... BUT it does not apply to the 1.4T. Because the 1.4T was designed for 93 (or maybe something even higher, based on some results we've seen). What it has, instead, is software that checks the knock sensor, and retards timing until you get no knocks, which interestingly is the effect you get running low octane fuel in an engine designed for a higher octane.

That means, in turn (and experience confirms the theory) that there's more power to be had running higher octane fuels. You even see it to some extent with the stock tune, although more so with a real tune.

Also, many have seen slightly higher mpg on higher octane, enough to offset the higher cost per gallon. If that's the case for you (it seems to vary car to car for some reason), it might even be cheaper, as well as allowing more power, on a miles per dollar basis. Even if you don't see this effect, though, you'll almost certainly have more power available, and smoother power delivery across the whole range, well worth the extra money if you care about such things.

 

[wy2sl0]

I agree with both of the Smiths. Start with a tune that allows you to datalog then as you add mods you can adjust the tune.

By the way, welcome to the family wy2sl0!!

:banana:

Thank you very much.


As I said, I have a good understanding of how engines function and detonation, knock sensors/retard, timing, etc. The reason for the straight water injection is A) you don't have to constantly adjust tuning for meth content and B) straight water is cheap and extremely effective at eliminating most, if not all knock.

I am trying to rip through this tank of 87 and fill with some 91/93. It seems I have a transmission issue though so I can't be doing any mods whatsoever until I figure out what it is I am dealing with. Thanks for the responses everyone.

 

[ScarabEpic22]

Find a local tuner who has experience tuning VVT and turbo'd engines with HPTuners, you'll be much better off than ANY canned tune (Trifecta, VTuners, Bully Dog, etc). Invest the $150-170 in a wideband O2 as well.

I would vote IC upgrade over meth kit, simply because meth you have to monitor whereas the IC upgrade is install-and-forget. Especially since you aren't doing an intake (I would suggest you do personally) and pushing it for max power, meth isnt the first step. In my mind, you do meth once you've got all the bolt-ons and are looking to run more timing/boost and your current setup cant handle it. Not something you stick on a mostly stock car. Just my .02.

And run premium 91-93 all the time, the extra $1-2 is well worth it for free power. Port the intake manifold and bypass-the-bypass-solenoid too, basically free mods that help significantly.

 

[wy2sl0]

I just searched around and can't seem to see any HpTuners in my area (Ottawa). The thing I do like about Trifecta/Vtuner is that they have a proven reliability record.

Would I be better getting an HPTuners package and start learning this kind of stuff myself and take baby steps?? I would consider myself an extremely fast learner with a good understanding of ICE engines.

 

[Stew]

Would I be better getting an HPTuners package and start learning this kind of stuff myself and take baby steps?? I would consider myself an extremely fast learner with a good understanding of ICE engines.

Yes, yes you would.

Some good reads are:
Tuning the 1.4t Cruze - A Mildly Scientific Approach

Cruze 1.4T Tuning?

As well as:
http://www.sonicownersforum.com/forum/build-threads/14039-stews-sonic.html

And of course:
http://www.sonicownersforum.com/for...on/15371-taking-mystery-out-tuning-1-4-a.html

If you understand what's being discussed in these threads you will be fine and there are several guys on this forum who are really sharp using HPTuners who are very helpful.

 

[Palmaris]

I just searched around and can't seem to see any HpTuners in my area (Ottawa). The thing I do like about Trifecta/Vtuner is that they have a proven reliability record.

Would I be better getting an HPTuners package and start learning this kind of stuff myself and take baby steps?? I would consider myself an extremely fast learner with a good understanding of ICE engines.

Not sure if they can help out but the only shop I know about in Ottawa is called Tonic Motorsports. They have experience tuning Subaru's so you can go see if they have any willingness to help out a guy with a Sonic.

 

[Foxbox]

To do a 14.9 at or around 0 elevation is fairly simple.

You could prolly pull it off with just a tune. I did a 14.8 with a tune/intake/cat-back. That was with like a 2.3 60' ft time.

 

[wy2sl0]

To do a 14.9 at or around 0 elevation is fairly simple.

You could prolly pull it off with just a tune. I did a 14.8 with a tune/intake/cat-back. That was with like a 2.3 60' ft time.

That is rather nice to hear then. I think I am around ~200ft elevation.

Did you go with Vtuner or Trifecta?

 

[Foxbox]

Trifecta tune. Never updated.

Went as fast as 14.4@94 mph. With intake/tune/catback and tires.

 

[Foxbox]

Here's a video of my 14.4.

https://youtu.be/-sdFjNlZExg

 

[mja]

Actually I disagree with the HPT option. If youve used it before you know its relatively simple to increase spark across the rpm range and under different paramters after you do some data logging. Its really not too difficult on a naturally aspirated car. However, working with higher boost is not so simple and I found it to be more effort than was worth. And Ive tuned a few cars in the past myself with good results. Even some add-on forced induction trucks and such running low boost. Running over 20psi is another ballgame. Also, trifecta has completely different software that I found to be pretty impressive and theres no way you could match their tune without quite a few dyno hours which would get pricey Do some searching on the tunes around the forum. Uploading a tune is so much simpler. The plus side is you have more time to watch some basketball and eat girl scout cookies, if thats your thing. It may not be, but who knows really.