Sonic or Patriot?

[ChrisJ]

also watch out making the decision with mpg...the sonic gets a little thirsty under certain conditions. It doesn't really like heavy city traffic for example..mid to high 20s is not unheard of. I have zero idea how the patriot compares in that regard. For all I know a an angels loses its wings everytime you get into one.

mid to high 20's isn't thirsty IMO.
A coworker barely squeeks 25MPG highway out of his several year old Jetta.

I told him to buy a Sonic, instead he bought a used Jetta. And now hes not happy. :banana:

Also, a Sonic with a 1.4 turbo likely gets about as good gas mileage as possible for a non-hybrid. This means if for some reason you manage high 20s in the city with a 1.4 turbo Sonic, then ANY other non-hybrid vehicle will be worse. Personally I've never seen less than 36MPG.

 

[Macehammer]

Also, a Sonic with a 1.4 turbo likely gets about as good gas mileage as possible for a non-hybrid.

Not according to the 2015 standards....

 

[laborsmith]

What about the 2015 standard?

I have been thinking the big change is due in 2016.


Laborsmith

 

[Macehammer]

Is it 2016, well, f*ck...

Doesn't matter. Either we'll all be buying hybrids, or the manufacturers have been holding out on us...

 

[ChrisJ]

Is it 2016, well, f*ck...

Doesn't matter. Either we'll all be buying hybrids, or the manufacturers have been holding out on us...

Ok,

RIGHT NOW, in 2013, I feel a Sonic 1.4T or a Eco Cruze get the best MPG of any non-hybrid.

I cannot predict the future so I don't know what will be in 2016.


I am also of the opinion that our cars do equal if not better than hybrids at pure highway. Even if only equal you're still saving due to the cheaper cost of the vehicle.

 

[Preloader]

And now hes not happy. :banana:

I think this single statement+emoticon captures the essence of ChrisJ's persona on this forum. I lol'd.

 

[Isambard]

For a conventional ICE, the Sonic is certainly near the top in terms of rated fuel economy and more importantly, real world fuel economy. The best conventional gas engines are averaging high 30s, right there with the Sonic.

Also, OP should be looking at the big picture, total cost of ownership. That includes resale value as well.

Also, CAFE mpg is NOT calculated the same way as the Monroney sticker EPA estimated mpg.

 

[Preloader]

Also, consider this about hybrids. An extra 3mpg saves you what? $800 a year.

If the hybrid cost you $8,000 more than a similar standard vehicle. It would take 10 battery-problem-free years of driving to come out on top with your decision.opcorn:

I think hybrids are farqin stupid, but were necessary to evolve to full electric, because we all remember what happened the first time they jumped straight to electric. Big oil said: Nope.

That being said, I also think most electric cars are stupid. They might save you money on fuel, but they are no better for the environment. Stuff has to be burned into the atmosphere to produce electricity. Just because it doesn't happen locally at the car's tailpipe, doesn't mean it's not happening at all.

 

[ChrisJ]

I think this single statement+emoticon captures the essence of ChrisJ's persona on this forum. I lol'd.

Oh cmon that is so not true.


Besides, I think its funny because I told him to buy a Sonic and he didn't listen.

 

[Macehammer]

They might save you money on fuel, but they are no better for the environment. Stuff has to be burned into the atmosphere to produce electricity. Just because it doesn't happen locally at the car's tailpipe, doesn't mean it's not happening at all.

Uh, Pre, normally what you post is sensible. This is not. Larger scale operations can build in much more efficiency into their operations than small scale ones.

We are all running very small, somewhat dirty power plants in our vehicles, and because of that our emissions are fairly hard to control.

Yes most electric is generated from coal. It's still easier to scrub filter and deal with than a bunch of drivers who think their almighty individualism is most important...

The prob with the electric grid is an infrastructure and political one. Appropriately handled, it would be much more efficient and less harmful to the environment that gas.

But don't expect the politicians to prove me right...

 

[sx sonic]

Uh, Pre, normally what you post is sensible. This is not. Larger scale operations can build in much more efficiency into their operations than small scale ones.

We are all running very small, somewhat dirty power plants in our vehicles, and because of that our emissions are fairly hard to control.

Yes most electric is generated from coal. It's still easier to scrub filter and deal with than a bunch of drivers who think their almighty individualism is most important...

The prob with the electric grid is an infrastructure and political one. Appropriately handled, it would be much more efficient and less harmful to the environment that gas.

But don't expect the politicians to prove me right...

Truth
There should be lower total emission with electrics.


Although the batteries aren't exactly enviro friendly. I could be wrong on that and they're actually made from rainbows and unicorns. That'd be a good sales pitch

 

[Preloader]

That was an elaborate way of agreeing with me.

Electricity has the potential to be cleaner, but until it becomes as lucrative as it is the way it is produced now, we are a ways off.

I did the piping on a solar panel plant. The chemicals used to etch the panels is beyond hazardous on an environmental level. Again, the end user of the panels gets an uninformed sense of "green" living by harnessing electricity from the sun. But the pollution expelled from the refineries to produce the etching acids, not to mention the acids themselves are offsetting the holiness of "free" electricity.

Honestly I feel, and bear with me as I will lose even more agreement with this statement, that nuclear is the cleanest energy source, when proper, Fukushima preventing safety systems are put into effect.

Science has found responsible ways to recycle the nuclear reactive agents to reduce the nuclear and toxic waste to almost nil. But I should digress.

 

[Isambard]

But the pollution expelled from the refineries to produce the etching acids, not to mention the acids themselves are offsetting the holiness of "free" electricity.

But does the production and disposal of that chemical totally offset the benefit of the solar power? That chemical is used once in the process, then the solar plant is essentially "clean" for the rest of it's life. It's not necessarily a zero-sum process like you are implying.

Honestly I feel, and bear with me as I will lose even more agreement with this statement, that nuclear is the cleanest energy source, when proper, Fukushima preventing safety systems are put into effect.

Science has found responsible ways to recycle the nuclear reactive agents to reduce the nuclear and toxic waste to almost nil. But I should digress.

I agree with you here :thumbup:

 

[PolkSDA]

The other major improvement is they are HEAVELY discounted by 3K+. You can get one with Automatic, AC, and CD for $16k, at least 1k less than the Sonic. Reviews say they are comfortable and ride well. Handling is OK. More room inside. The 2014s are quieter inside than previous years. More room inside is a good thing.
Hand cranked windows are standard. You cannot even get a 2013 Sonic with hand cranked windows AND a CD. Oh yes, Fog lights are standard.
By the way, a replacement will be out in the spring, explaining the discount.
I suppose the worst thing about the Patriot is that it is not a Sonic.

Make sure you're comparing apples to apples. Don't compare discounted Patriot to full-sticker Sonic. You should be able to get nice discounts on '13 Sonics right now.

I bought my LT sedan (1.4 Turbo, AT, MyLink) on Aug. 30. Sticker was about $18,700. Factoring in rebates and negotiating the price down, the actual sale price was below $17,000.

While perhaps not the same level of discount as the Patriot, the difference in discounting right now is probably about $1K, not $3K. So the question you have to ask yourself is whether settling for the Patriot is worth it given that differential, especially when factoring in some of the amenities the Sonic has that the Patriot may not.

In the long run, what you are perceiving *NOW* to be the cheaper purchase, may in fact not be.

 

[Opticon]

It's still easier to scrub filter and deal with than a bunch of drivers who think their almighty individualism is most important...

You're right. I should drive what career politicians tell me to. I mean, they're going through all the trouble to invested in it and force it on consumers through media and legislation... it MUST be legit.

Now I know that I can't get the charge in my cell phone to last more than a day and the battery is a paperweight after 2 years but I'm sure electric cars will be much more convenient. I mean, they would have to be since they cost twice as much as gas cars. Good thing us taxpayers are subsidizing the manufacture and sale of them. We make too much money at our jobs anyway.

So to hell with the free market, affordability, and what makes ME happy. We the collective have some lobbyists/politicians to make rich.... I MEAN, a planet to save!

I'm changing my reccomendation. Buy an old Powerwagon and swap in the biggest blown V8 you can find. Run over hybrids for bonus points.

 

[SouthFLSonic]

I'm changing my reccomendation. Buy an old Powerwagon and swap in the biggest blown V8 you can find. Run over hybrids for bonus points.

 

[Isambard]

Now I know that I can't get the charge in my cell phone to last more than a day and the battery is a paperweight after 2 years but I'm sure electric cars will be much more convenient. I mean, they would have to be since they cost twice as much as gas cars. Good thing us taxpayers are subsidizing the manufacture and sale of them. We make too much money at our jobs anyway.

Do you think electric cars will become affordable overnight? Conventional automobiles were a luxury item for a long time before Henry Ford made them affordable for Joe Schmo.

As for the government subsidy argument, we could fill a whole other thread with that. But that would be a disservice to the OP.

 

[Macehammer]

You're right. I should drive what career politicians tell me to. I mean, they're going through all the trouble to invested in it and force it on consumers through media and legislation... it MUST be legit.

No dude, but you can't expect that we can keep putting more and more wheels on the road, not to mention to boom of drivers in nations like china, and be able to afford gas, portable astronaut suits for the elderly when summer temperatures rise over 120 degrees Fahrenheit, etc, etc.

Not investing or planning for the future is a great way to live life.... I'm not saying trust politicians. I'm not even saying trust scientists. But I'm not on the f*ck everybody bus either.

And for some... don't take the cats off of your car and try to argue how ungreen the solar manufacturing process is.

 

[ChrisJ]

The lithium ion comment is about as stupid as every other meme I've seen. Lithium ion batteries are recyclable AND are being recycled by many including my self. Used gasoline and diesel is not.

Further more, should we pollute less? yes. Must we pollute less? YES.
However, these arguments are moot. Because the fact is as Gasoline and Diesel prices continue to rise, more and more people will do what is in their own best interest and switch. I can assure you when gas is $8 a gallon plus whatever inflation on top of it we have by then, people will not be driving cars that only get 20MPG at least not in any large quantity.

How about we do the right thing, and start a pissing contest in an argument thread in the off topic section instead of hogging this one?

 

[Preloader]

I had a long discussion not long ago with a particularly smart individual who put our wasteful use of fossil fuel into an eloquent context.

Paraphrased: "With the amount of highly technological and reusable, sometimes even life-saving products that we can and have invented and built from crude oil, and considering it is a finite supply, do you think it is in our best interest as the human race to remove it from the ground and burn it into the air for our personal selfish commuting needs?"

Then he proceeded to laser engrave my wife and I's names onto wooden skeeballs for me to give as wedding gifts to my groomsmen.

Truth.