ChrisJ
Active member
Would the speedo even go up on a newer car? I'd assume no.
Clutch is Completely Gone
- Thread starter thecasemaster
- Start date
Would the speedo even go up on a newer car? I'd assume no.
thecasemaster
New member
I've taken my car back to the dealership for the second time now since I got it back from them replacing the clutch. The clutch height is way different than it's ever been before. From the time I bought the car up until the clutch went out the clutch would start engaging as soon as I started letting the pedal out and wouldn't be fully engaged until it was all the way out. Now clutch is fully engaged by the time the clutch pedal is half way out.
The mechanic told me that they have no way of adjusting the clutch height because it's hydraulic and the slave cylinder determines that. I asked him why it would be different now than it was before and he said that sometimes GM will refresh the part number (basically replace the part with a newer model) for various reasons and sometimes when this happens, the parts may function a little differently. So in my case he was suggesting that GM may have refreshed the slave cylinder (he told me they changed out my slave cylinder out as well) and that could be why the clutch height is different.
Can anyone corroborate or debunk the claim that they can't adjust the clutch height?
The mechanic told me that they have no way of adjusting the clutch height because it's hydraulic and the slave cylinder determines that. I asked him why it would be different now than it was before and he said that sometimes GM will refresh the part number (basically replace the part with a newer model) for various reasons and sometimes when this happens, the parts may function a little differently. So in my case he was suggesting that GM may have refreshed the slave cylinder (he told me they changed out my slave cylinder out as well) and that could be why the clutch height is different.
Can anyone corroborate or debunk the claim that they can't adjust the clutch height?
Preloader
The M32 Martyr
They CANNOT adjust the engagement height.
I've been through several clutch swaps and had to replace the slave every time. They are fragile and basically blow the seal if you try to re-use after trans R&R.
Sounds like the original engagement was wrong. Even though I prefer a low engagement point...... On our Sonics, when working properly, engagement is at about the halfway point of the pedals total travel.
I have handled 2 different slaves for or trans. But one has too short of a throw and will basically fail within a couple uses of the clutch.
It had a different p/n and the short throw would cause a very "close to the floor" engagement like you described. So maybe it was a refresh like you speculate.
Some hydraulic clutch set-ups allow you to adjust engagement height via the slave push rod.
Ours DO NOT, because the slave is direct acting on the throwout. Which sucks, because the trans must be removed to replace the slave.
I've been through several clutch swaps and had to replace the slave every time. They are fragile and basically blow the seal if you try to re-use after trans R&R.
Sounds like the original engagement was wrong. Even though I prefer a low engagement point...... On our Sonics, when working properly, engagement is at about the halfway point of the pedals total travel.
I have handled 2 different slaves for or trans. But one has too short of a throw and will basically fail within a couple uses of the clutch.
It had a different p/n and the short throw would cause a very "close to the floor" engagement like you described. So maybe it was a refresh like you speculate.
Some hydraulic clutch set-ups allow you to adjust engagement height via the slave push rod.
Ours DO NOT, because the slave is direct acting on the throwout. Which sucks, because the trans must be removed to replace the slave.
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thecasemaster
New member
Well it's nice to know they are telling me the truth. I don't, however, like the way the clutch engages now....if it had driven like this when I test drove it I more than likely wouldn't have bought the car....
ahtoxa
New member
It sounds like your engagement now is the way it should engage, because beginning of engagement off the floor and full engagement only done at the height of pedal travel is not correct. If you did, in fact, have such large engagement zone before, perhaps that's why the clutch was so worn out to begin with.
Preloader
The M32 Martyr
Agreed. It sounds like the incorrect engagement was causing the clutch to only halfway disengage, which would seriously affect the life of the clutch.
You have been used to the low grabbing since you've owned the car, so naturally the new correct grab height is gonna feel awkward. And while I second your distaste for the grab height, I have gotten pretty used to it and I'm guessing after some time with it, it won't bother you as much.
You have been used to the low grabbing since you've owned the car, so naturally the new correct grab height is gonna feel awkward. And while I second your distaste for the grab height, I have gotten pretty used to it and I'm guessing after some time with it, it won't bother you as much.
thecasemaster
New member
You're probably right. However, all my previous cars had a height pretty similar to my sonic when I bought it....just not a fan of the dead zone where I'm pushing the pedal and nothing is happening. A little dead space on the front and back end of the pedal? Yeah. Completely understandable. Half the travel distance though? ...
ChrisJ
Active member
My 92 pickup when I bought it used would start grabbing right off the floor. I'm talking 1/16th of an inch. Over time it got worse until I couldn't stand it anymore. I think we tore the clutch out at 210K and the clutch it self had around 180K because it was aftermarket and was used for towing before I got the truck.
The replacement OEM clutch engaged about half way up and I was in heaven! Not to mention the fact the pedal was no where near as hard, I could even push it with my hand.
I will ALWAYS welcome a clutch that engages half way up.
ahtoxa
New member
Half-way-up clutch engagement is pretty standard, really. I've owned a good number of new and used cars in the last 12 or 13 years and all non-worn or broken clutches engaged about half way up.
Engagement point itself is simply a matter of getting used to. Nothing more and nothing less; I don't really think it has any effect on performance from any perspective. At least not at the level of your family car.
Engagement point itself is simply a matter of getting used to. Nothing more and nothing less; I don't really think it has any effect on performance from any perspective. At least not at the level of your family car.
Preloader
The M32 Martyr
I hate hydraulic clutches in general. It's the hydraulics that affect performance more than the actual engagement height.
A fun little story. My first love was an 84 Z/28. Not the fastest car to start with, but fun to mod none-the-less. It was an auto, but my father assured me that swapping it to a manual was not that difficult. I was 17 at the time.
I cruised the local junkyard and sure enough found an 83 Z/28 with a manny, so I yanked it and bought it for a whopping $74.
When I showed it to my pops (who owned/ran a transmission shop all my life) he told me that the 82-83 was the only 3rd gen Camaro that had a mech clutch linkage bell housing.
Score!!!
By the time I was ready to do the swap, he had sold his business and was forced to do it in the driveway, but whatev's. Ironically the hardest part was installing the pedal assembly.
Cutting the hole in the floor and installing the gearbox was a cakewalk.
The best part of the mech linkage is that it has a huge range of adjustability. I definitely prefer to adjust it to grab the moment you breath off of the pedal. That way when you really want to launch, there is no feeling around, you just have to worry about the right foot .
No bleeding required, and adjustment could be done on the fly. I loved it!
Another negative about hyd clutch is that there is a small amount of dampening when you dump the clutch when the slave has to allow the fluid to return. With mech, it's just your foot vs. the pressure plate (give or take a little M.A.)
Clutchmasters does sell an aftermarket throwout/slave as well as an adjustable hydraulic release kit. But honestly I think it's not worth the trial and error to fit them to the Sonic.
Those of you that followed my CM clutch debacle know what I'm talking about.
I'm sure this little personal story may have been useless for most, but I felt like sharing for the few that may have learned a little from the extra detail of my experience. Cheers.
A fun little story. My first love was an 84 Z/28. Not the fastest car to start with, but fun to mod none-the-less. It was an auto, but my father assured me that swapping it to a manual was not that difficult. I was 17 at the time.
I cruised the local junkyard and sure enough found an 83 Z/28 with a manny, so I yanked it and bought it for a whopping $74.
When I showed it to my pops (who owned/ran a transmission shop all my life) he told me that the 82-83 was the only 3rd gen Camaro that had a mech clutch linkage bell housing.
Score!!!
By the time I was ready to do the swap, he had sold his business and was forced to do it in the driveway, but whatev's. Ironically the hardest part was installing the pedal assembly.
Cutting the hole in the floor and installing the gearbox was a cakewalk.
The best part of the mech linkage is that it has a huge range of adjustability. I definitely prefer to adjust it to grab the moment you breath off of the pedal. That way when you really want to launch, there is no feeling around, you just have to worry about the right foot .
No bleeding required, and adjustment could be done on the fly. I loved it!
Another negative about hyd clutch is that there is a small amount of dampening when you dump the clutch when the slave has to allow the fluid to return. With mech, it's just your foot vs. the pressure plate (give or take a little M.A.)
Clutchmasters does sell an aftermarket throwout/slave as well as an adjustable hydraulic release kit. But honestly I think it's not worth the trial and error to fit them to the Sonic.
Those of you that followed my CM clutch debacle know what I'm talking about.
I'm sure this little personal story may have been useless for most, but I felt like sharing for the few that may have learned a little from the extra detail of my experience. Cheers.
thecasemaster
New member
That wouldn't be as bad. My car, as of last Monday when I dropped it off at the dealership, was starting to engage immediately and was fully engaged by the time it was half way out. So I still have to push the clutch all the way in, but the first half of my push does nothing. I could drive with the clutch pushed in half way and you'd think my foot wasn't even on the pedal.
Luv2xlr8
New member
That reminds me in one of my civics slave cylinder gone bad and wasn't bled right. Hopefully it's something simple in your case. Keep us posted and good luck.
thecasemaster
New member
I never drive with my foot on the clutch unless I'm shifting. I have to push the pedal in half way before it starts disengaging now, used to it would start disengaging as soon as I pushed the clutch in at all. From what you guys have been saying I'm thinking it's working like it should now except the dead spot it the first half of the push instead of the last half.
thecasemaster
New member
Definitely will. Supposed to pick it up in the morning.
Can anyone confirm that it is the last half of the clutch push should be the dead zone? So you're only having to push the clutch in half way to shift.
Preloader
The M32 Martyr
The slaves for these are so sensitive. Until they are fully bled, they are vulnerable to mis aligning and jamming, which destroys the seal and requires replacement, which requires trans removal.
I've learned this the hard way. I recommend treating slave bleeding like a delicate flower. Also I've learned to confirm proper slave/clutch operation before bolting everything else back up.
As far as dead half of pedal travel..... I'd say that's about right, but I would still operate the pedal to the floor on every shift.
If you feel it stop before the floor, something ain't right, and the slave seal will eventually fail from getting slammed by the slave cylinder.
Or.......... You are thinking, since it doesn't "need" to be pressed all the way to the floor, and you like an earlier grab, maybe there is a way to customize your own pedal stop, so you don't have to lift your foot so far to get grab.
The thought has crossed my mind many a time, but I've learned to "let it go". Precision Pun Execution.
I've learned this the hard way. I recommend treating slave bleeding like a delicate flower. Also I've learned to confirm proper slave/clutch operation before bolting everything else back up.
As far as dead half of pedal travel..... I'd say that's about right, but I would still operate the pedal to the floor on every shift.
If you feel it stop before the floor, something ain't right, and the slave seal will eventually fail from getting slammed by the slave cylinder.
Or.......... You are thinking, since it doesn't "need" to be pressed all the way to the floor, and you like an earlier grab, maybe there is a way to customize your own pedal stop, so you don't have to lift your foot so far to get grab.
The thought has crossed my mind many a time, but I've learned to "let it go". Precision Pun Execution.