Performance cams 1.4/1.8
- Thread starter zomby woof
- Start date
JesusTheAgnostic
New member
Oh boy, this is pretty exciting!
Big Turbo Sonic
Member
My two sense...
This is very exciting for the 1.8 guys because more lift and duration. Just like any NA car.
Not so exciting for the 1.4. Will be very expensive for a ported head and cams. Plus the stock turbo is out of breath with a tune so it wont do much good anyways.
Better option... bigger turbo.
This is very exciting for the 1.8 guys because more lift and duration. Just like any NA car.
Not so exciting for the 1.4. Will be very expensive for a ported head and cams. Plus the stock turbo is out of breath with a tune so it wont do much good anyways.
Better option... bigger turbo.
JesusTheAgnostic
New member
I don't believe in bigger turbos... Lol jk, does it take long to spool though? And can I still pass inspection? Those are my two big concerns because I live down the street from the sheriff's department and I like to go fast
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zomby woof
Member
BTS, See posts #5 & 6
Don't get too excited just yet. Flyer is being nice enough to lend a head and cams for development, so the pkg is being shipped to a depot in Niagara falls NY for his convenience. I will attempt in the next month or so to go get it (I'm in Canada), but between my current workload, and a long vacation this summer, it might not go as quickly as some would like.
Just so you know
.
But the plan still is, cams, head porting, 1 pc SS swirl polished valves in .5 to 1mm oversize.
These are the same things I do for the DOHC Suzuki motors.
Don't get too excited just yet. Flyer is being nice enough to lend a head and cams for development, so the pkg is being shipped to a depot in Niagara falls NY for his convenience. I will attempt in the next month or so to go get it (I'm in Canada), but between my current workload, and a long vacation this summer, it might not go as quickly as some would like.
Just so you know
.
But the plan still is, cams, head porting, 1 pc SS swirl polished valves in .5 to 1mm oversize.
These are the same things I do for the DOHC Suzuki motors.
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Big Turbo Sonic
Member
I am full boost (23psi) at 3,400 rpm. So yes, a little slower spooling, but way more power. This turbo should be capable of 275whp with the bigger compressor wheel I have in it. What do you mean by inspection? I pass emissions no problem.
Big Turbo Sonic
Member
You said more power with less boost. I suspect nearly the same power with a tad less boost, but your the expert, not me
I just dont see it pratical for 1.4 guys to spend thousands of dollars on ported head and cams to make marginal gains. I think money would be better spent on saving a little more money and having a turbo kit made. You will make way more power and if you select a big enough turbo you can have room to grow. I feel the same way about the BNR GTX kit, but thats irrelevant. Again, just my opinion. I am not discouraging anyone and I am still excited to see the outcome:banana:
zomby woof
Member
Well, if it's thousands of dollars, I wouldn't expect anybody to have an interest. I sure wouldn't. As these motor get older, heads are going to come off, valves are going to be replaced, and while they're in there, people that are looking for more power and want to do cams. I don't think it makes a lot of sense for the average enthusiast, people like you and me, to pull the head off their low mileage daily driver and send it out with a bunch of money to be worked on. That's not the market I service in the Suzuki community.
So first I'll give you an analogy, so you can picture what exactly is going on, then an example of what typically happens when you increase flow through the cylinder head. People have a difficult time understanding the roll of turbo boost, but it's very simple.
Ever hold a water hose in your hand? What happens when you put your thumb over the outlet while the water is running? Maybe you've done this while washing your car. It's trying to maintain flow but it can't because your thumb is in the way, so what happens? It starts squirting wildly because the restriction is causing the flow to reduce and pressure to increase. One is a factor, or side effect of the other. As restriction increases, flow reduces as pressure increases. This is what's happening in your motor. The turbo is trying to push air through your motor but the the cylinder head, is creating a restriction, reducing flow, and as a side effect, increasing pressure. This is boost. So in this respect, boost is the negative side effect of airflow from the turbo and restriction in the cylinder head. Airflow is the ultimate goal, boost pressure is not. This is where people get stuck.
So about 15 years ago I was building and racing some factory turbo Suzuki cars. These were 993cc, three cylinder cars known in the U.S. as the Chevy Sprint turbo. The turbos are so small they fit in the palm of your hand. Versions of them were used on some motorcycles in the 80's. Everybody wanted to swap them out for a bigger turbo. They're way too small people would say. I thought they were perfect. Very little lag, and they could generate lot's of boost. We used to put bleeder valves on the wastegate actuator to reduce the pressure it saw and trick it into making more boost. Eventually I just disconnected the wastegate and it would generate about 25 psi under maximum load, and I could run a low 15 second quarter mile, 15.1 was my best. The cam was mild, 192 degrees duration at .050"/.332" lift. As you can imagine, there were no performance parts available, so I got a parts car, pulled the head and started development. I put together a few cam options, and since I was also driving this car on the street, put in a nice middle of the road performance cam of 226/.395". +34 degrees duration and .063" (that's a sixteenth of an inch) increase in lift. So what happened? I was now making power past 5000 RPM, to roughly 6500, though it would still pull hard to 7000, but the important thing was that with that little turbo running balls out, the max boost I could now make was 15 psi. I lost 10 psi of boost, the reason being that I reduced restriction in the cylinder head. So now with less restriction it was flowing much more air and with less boost (restriction = friction) less heat and much more power. The car was faster - by a lot, and much more fun to drive, especially since it now wanted to rev.
The end result, I knocked almost half a second off my time, was running a consistent 14.7 in the quarter, and set two land speed records in the standing mile on an otherwise stock motor. It transformed the car.
So first I'll give you an analogy, so you can picture what exactly is going on, then an example of what typically happens when you increase flow through the cylinder head. People have a difficult time understanding the roll of turbo boost, but it's very simple.
Ever hold a water hose in your hand? What happens when you put your thumb over the outlet while the water is running? Maybe you've done this while washing your car. It's trying to maintain flow but it can't because your thumb is in the way, so what happens? It starts squirting wildly because the restriction is causing the flow to reduce and pressure to increase. One is a factor, or side effect of the other. As restriction increases, flow reduces as pressure increases. This is what's happening in your motor. The turbo is trying to push air through your motor but the the cylinder head, is creating a restriction, reducing flow, and as a side effect, increasing pressure. This is boost. So in this respect, boost is the negative side effect of airflow from the turbo and restriction in the cylinder head. Airflow is the ultimate goal, boost pressure is not. This is where people get stuck.
So about 15 years ago I was building and racing some factory turbo Suzuki cars. These were 993cc, three cylinder cars known in the U.S. as the Chevy Sprint turbo. The turbos are so small they fit in the palm of your hand. Versions of them were used on some motorcycles in the 80's. Everybody wanted to swap them out for a bigger turbo. They're way too small people would say. I thought they were perfect. Very little lag, and they could generate lot's of boost. We used to put bleeder valves on the wastegate actuator to reduce the pressure it saw and trick it into making more boost. Eventually I just disconnected the wastegate and it would generate about 25 psi under maximum load, and I could run a low 15 second quarter mile, 15.1 was my best. The cam was mild, 192 degrees duration at .050"/.332" lift. As you can imagine, there were no performance parts available, so I got a parts car, pulled the head and started development. I put together a few cam options, and since I was also driving this car on the street, put in a nice middle of the road performance cam of 226/.395". +34 degrees duration and .063" (that's a sixteenth of an inch) increase in lift. So what happened? I was now making power past 5000 RPM, to roughly 6500, though it would still pull hard to 7000, but the important thing was that with that little turbo running balls out, the max boost I could now make was 15 psi. I lost 10 psi of boost, the reason being that I reduced restriction in the cylinder head. So now with less restriction it was flowing much more air and with less boost (restriction = friction) less heat and much more power. The car was faster - by a lot, and much more fun to drive, especially since it now wanted to rev.
The end result, I knocked almost half a second off my time, was running a consistent 14.7 in the quarter, and set two land speed records in the standing mile on an otherwise stock motor. It transformed the car.
JesusTheAgnostic
New member
First you got me excited and then not excited and then excited again and then now you lost me. But if it sounds like one of those crazy neons and it's affordable, still cool!
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zomby woof
Member
Tell me what part you don't understand and I will try to clarify it for you. It's a tough thing to wrap your head around if you've never thought about it this way.
I've had customers with turbo cars (people with experience that should know better) complain that they lost boost after putting in one of my cams, and they thought something was wrong. More boost is more better, right? Not always.
I've had customers with turbo cars (people with experience that should know better) complain that they lost boost after putting in one of my cams, and they thought something was wrong. More boost is more better, right? Not always.
Big Turbo Sonic
Member
Here is where I am stuck. Look at the flow map below of a very similar map for the turbo in this car. This map is actually probably a little bigger than stock but its just for reference. People are already at the edge of the map. The turbo cant flow any more so what good is a head and cams going to do for the 1.4? Better throttle response and power down low and mid range?
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zomby woof
Member
You're increasing efficiency.
Do you really think you're at the air flow limit of the turbo if you're creating pressure in the intake tract? You're not, that's why it's creating pressure
Do you really think you're at the air flow limit of the turbo if you're creating pressure in the intake tract? You're not, that's why it's creating pressure
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Blue Moon Sonic
New member
The way I'm seeing it is that if you loose 10psi because you don't have restricted air flow, your making the same power at 15ps instead of 25psi, because there is less pressure being built up in the head from improper flow going into the combustion chamber. Now at this point. Your 15psi = 25psi on the new cams and valves and your turbo isn't working as hard to make the target power. This will increase the life of the turbo and will allow you to turn up the boost to make more power. Please correct me if I am wrong since I am currently also trying to wrap my head around this.
As a side note. The automatic transmissions don't last very long past 180whp. I already know this because I'm loosing my overdrive and I'm pretty sure my torque converter is slipping now from racing the car and doing boosted launches every weekend. If it was closer to stock, the transmission would be still fine with just a fluid change at 30,000 miles.
As a side note. The automatic transmissions don't last very long past 180whp. I already know this because I'm loosing my overdrive and I'm pretty sure my torque converter is slipping now from racing the car and doing boosted launches every weekend. If it was closer to stock, the transmission would be still fine with just a fluid change at 30,000 miles.
2014 Blue RS
Active member
And how do we do fluid change on the tranny? I've got the Pela Oil extractor I use for my motor oil but haven't done my tranny and I'm getting to 34k.
Blue Moon Sonic
New member
I just took mine to the dealership to have them service it. I won't touch the transmission fluids in these cars unless I have the proper equipment to service the transmission. It's not like the cars of old, where the transmission had a dipstick.
Interesting to see what happens. The turbo on these is too small. But a great flowing head and cam packge would be nice to help everything along.
I'm interested in seeing this with a bigger turbo setup. The possibility is incredible.
Imagine walkers car at 450whp revving to 8k on a nice head and cam
I'm interested in seeing this with a bigger turbo setup. The possibility is incredible.
Imagine walkers car at 450whp revving to 8k on a nice head and cam
Big Turbo Sonic
Member
Big Turbo Sonic
Member
Maximum gear box torque is 236ft lbs, not to say that is the maximum. They obviously over design, but to what extent, I dont know. Do the 1.6 guys have the M32? If they are holding 400whp with the M32 I will pull my turbo kit off, sell it, and have an EFR kit made.
mja
Site Supporter
There are european M32 cars running 400hp on M32. There's even been choice magazine or blog articles written. You can have em built to withstand more static power, the enemy is heat and aggressive shifting.