Semi-Manual Discussion (manual mode on the A/T)

[photoman475]

I've got the 1.8 in my Sonic sedan and I've reached the point where I'd rather use the manual mode in town and let the auto do the work on the interstates.

In auto, the car does not seem to like the lower gears, especially at speeds around 15-25 miles an hour. The transmission does not seem to be able to make up it's mind what gear it wants to be in. The car wants to run, and the auto mode is great for that on the interstates.

I've also (re)discovered the old truism about manuals. With the snow and ice on the roads now in North Dakota, I'd rather use the downshift ability manual gives me for braking than to take the chance of sliding on ice, traction control or not, anti-skid braking or not.

Gas milage seems to be running about the same, regardless of which mode the transmission is in.

 

[ScooterMcTavish]

I do save a little gas in manual mode.

Because of the colder climate here, the car wants to stay in 5th on the highway when it isn't warm, running at 3k rpm. I use manual to push it into 6th, dropping rpms to just over 2k.

 

[sx sonic]

Put simply manual mode operates in the exact same way auto does. The bands, clutch oacks and solonoids operate the same way in either mode. So the only way for it to be more damageing in manual mode is to drive like a dumba$$


It can reward better mpg if you drive it too. Ie. Keeping the rpms low and shifting early, conversely it can get worse mpg if you shift worse than the computer

 

[Kodatech]

I have to say, the manual mode was very helpful in the snow. I locked it in third gear and drove 25 miles to work without an issue in 6 inches of snow.

 

[pounamu]

So when you're using the manual mode, you watch for the RPMs and shift in time, right? Do you have to put the car in neutral when you stop? Can you just shift from manual into D while driving, if you need to?

 

[sx sonic]

So when you're using the manual mode, you watch for the RPMs and shift in time, right? Do you have to put the car in neutral when you stop? Can you just shift from manual into D while driving, if you need to?

Yes watch the RPMs when shifting.

No you don't have to put it in neutral when stopping, It's still an automatic and as such won't stall out...... You actually don't even have to downshift in manual mode when stopping, the computer will automatically downshift to 1st or 2nd once you stop.

You can switch to D at any time, same for switching to M.


Keep in mind this is an automatic trans, the majority of the demographic that would by this trans do not understand how a manual trans works, how to operate one, or understand why certain things have to happen at certain times (like downshifting or going into N when stopping), and many are not used to being required to focus on RPM, gear changes, and speed so they're likely to forget to shift sometimes in manual mode.

Manufacturers have that in mind when designing an automatic with manual mode features. They make it so the driver really has to try and mess up the shifting. Mainly forgetting to downshift, It's also not uncommon for the trans to automatically shift before hitting the redline (driver forgot to shift), or only allowing the driver to downshift to certain gears to prevent over revving the engine (eg.driver tries to go from 6th to 1st)


Really all you have to worry about in M mode is shifting before redline, the computer will eventually take over the rest if you forget to intervene with a shift.

 

[pounamu]

SX Sonic, that was super helpful, thank you!
I was intrigued by the earlier assertion on this thread that the manual mode helped with snow driving... Considering the snow storm currently hitting the Northeast, this will be the perfect time to test that theory

 

[ChrisJ]

Simply put "manual mode" is identical to when you had a shifter that said (P R N D 3 2 1)

You just select using up and down buttons now but its the same B.S. as far as I could ever tell.

 

[Swordsmith]

Manual mode gives you back some of the control you lost by going to an automatic. The reason a manual transmission is preferable is that it lets you pick the performance level you want; you can remain in lower gears, which gives you more power but worse mpg, or you can shift up early, sacrificing power in order to get better mpg. An automatic is not going to pick "optimal gearing" because it simply doesn't know what's going on, how heavy traffic is, whether there's a hill ahead, what the weather is like, or for that matter whether you care more about fuel economy or the car having some guts...gas prices rising and your paycheck shrinking, or you have a date in the passenger seat? The transmission doesn't know.

The beauty of the manual mode automatic is that 90% or more of the time, you probably don't care one way or the other, and the auto will make fine decisions without bothering you about it. When you don't care, leave it in D, when you do, swap over to M and tell it who's boss.

 

[ChrisJ]

Manual mode gives you back some of the control you lost by going to an automatic. The reason a manual transmission is preferable is that it lets you pick the performance level you want; you can remain in lower gears, which gives you more power but worse mpg, or you can shift up early, sacrificing power in order to get better mpg. An automatic is not going to pick "optimal gearing" because it simply doesn't know what's going on, how heavy traffic is, whether there's a hill ahead, what the weather is like, or for that matter whether you care more about fuel economy or the car having some guts...gas prices rising and your paycheck shrinking, or you have a date in the passenger seat? The transmission doesn't know.

The beauty of the manual mode automatic is that 90% or more of the time, you probably don't care one way or the other, and the auto will make fine decisions without bothering you about it. When you don't care, leave it in D, when you do, swap over to M and tell it who's boss.

So back to, how is "manual mode" any different than how transmissions used to give you gear selections on the shifter?

As far as I could tell in multiple cars from multiple manufactures its no different. Its still delayed big time.

 

[$ub$onic]

When I drove Karens rs. I loved the turbo paired with the auto. Hers shifts so dang fast in manual mode. As soon as I hit the button it shifted like BAM new gear. Very pleased with it.

But I agree. It's the same concept as having 1-3 on the column.

 

[Swordsmith]

So back to, how is "manual mode" any different than how transmissions used to give you gear selections on the shifter?

Because the old "D 3 2 1" was only useful at the extreme low end of the field, and because it wasn't simple to switch back and forth between modes. Yes, you had the option of insisting the car go to and remain in first, or second, or third. But we've got 5 or 6 gears (depending on which engine you got), and a lot of the benefit of this is in being able to shift up to fifth or sixth when the AT might "think" you should still be in 3rd or 4th.

From D, you can be driving along at 45 in (I'm guessing here) 4th, and go to M and swap up to 5th for better mpg or down to 3rd for better acceleration OR for braking. The same relative choice is available to you whether the transmission is in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or (if you have the 6 speed) 5th, and if you're in 1st or 6th, you can still go one of the two directions.

I agree it's an extension of the old idea, but it's certainly not the same thing.

Secondly, the "manual mode" is actually only semi manual; it allows you to select a gear within a range, but when you drop your rpm too far, it takes back over and downshifts for you. So you can come to a complete stop, and start up again and you're in 1st, even if you were up in 6th when you started slowing down and never touched a thing.

Handy for people who don't know how to drive full manual, and also not so bad for those of us who are just being lazy.

As far as I could tell in multiple cars from multiple manufactures its no different. Its still delayed big time.

Here I'm afraid I can't really say. I haven't actually driven an automatic Sonic. The experience I had with this was in a rental Focus, which I drove for a week... and I was fairly impressed. Yes it wasn't -as- responsive, -as- fast as a real manual. But the tradeoff was that it was an automatic, had no clutch, could be ignored most of the time... yet gave me almost as much control, when I wanted it, as an actual stickshift.

If the M mode in the Sonic isn't as good as the one in that Focus, well then you might have a point. But if there's a similar delay, well, to be honest I probably delay that much changing gears myself, what with backing off the gas, clutch in, shift, clutch out and gas back on. M mode you just change gears, and it takes a piece of a second to do the shift for you, but doesn't take any pieces to do any of that other stuff.

 

[ChrisJ]

Because the old "D 3 2 1" was only useful at the extreme low end of the field, and because it wasn't simple to switch back and forth between modes. Yes, you had the option of insisting the car go to and remain in first, or second, or third. But we've got 5 or 6 gears (depending on which engine you got), and a lot of the benefit of this is in being able to shift up to fifth or sixth when the AT might "think" you should still be in 3rd or 4th.

From D, you can be driving along at 45 in (I'm guessing here) 4th, and go to M and swap up to 5th for better mpg or down to 3rd for better acceleration OR for braking. The same relative choice is available to you whether the transmission is in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or (if you have the 6 speed) 5th, and if you're in 1st or 6th, you can still go one of the two directions.

I agree it's an extension of the old idea, but it's certainly not the same thing.

Secondly, the "manual mode" is actually only semi manual; it allows you to select a gear within a range, but when you drop your rpm too far, it takes back over and downshifts for you. So you can come to a complete stop, and start up again and you're in 1st, even if you were up in 6th when you started slowing down and never touched a thing.

Handy for people who don't know how to drive full manual, and also not so bad for those of us who are just being lazy.



Here I'm afraid I can't really say. I haven't actually driven an automatic Sonic. The experience I had with this was in a rental Focus, which I drove for a week... and I was fairly impressed. Yes it wasn't -as- responsive, -as- fast as a real manual. But the tradeoff was that it was an automatic, had no clutch, could be ignored most of the time... yet gave me almost as much control, when I wanted it, as an actual stickshift.

If the M mode in the Sonic isn't as good as the one in that Focus, well then you might have a point. But if there's a similar delay, well, to be honest I probably delay that much changing gears myself, what with backing off the gas, clutch in, shift, clutch out and gas back on. M mode you just change gears, and it takes a piece of a second to do the shift for you, but doesn't take any pieces to do any of that other stuff.

On my 1987 GrandPrix if you put it in 3rd manually it would downshift into 2nd and 1st on its own. Actually technically it was "D" because it also had an "OD". 90% of the time I kept it in "D" to keep it out of 4th because 4th was too high for normal driving. It had a 2.41 final drive and that combined with the overdrive was too much.

From what I saw in my previous Sonic, the Sonic's manual mode was no different. Don't get me wrong, it's still something useful, just nothing special over what automatics have had since the 1960s if not sooner.

 

[Isambard]

Be aware that the Focus uses a dual-clutch automated manual similar to VW's DSG. It's not a traditional torque converter automatic transmission. Shifts should be quicker since the next gear is pre-matched by the other clutch.

Does the Sonic's automatic transmission blip the throttle on a downshift? My Mazda3 did, and it seems that some MFRs include this feature and some don't.

 

[Italianjoe1]

I think the sonic does match rev a little on downshifts, I haven't tried it at higher rpms to be sure though.

Manual mode is held to the same MPH constraints as full-auto mode, so it still shifts from 6th back to 5th when your speed drops below 39mph and won't allow you to shift back into 6th until you exceed 42mph again. Until you tune the car and adjust shift points and time, there's not a whole lot of reason to use it.

I do like it to hold the car in the torque band for better feeling highway pulls, the car tends to drop into a gear lower than it should and wring the engine out to 6k without going anywhere, if I keep it in 4th or 5th and around 4-5K it's pulling much smoother.

 

[barrstev]

It's an automatic. You can downshift earlier, which in turn will gain you better gas mileage. The auto doesn't know when you're going up or down a hill. Since you do, you can decide which gear optimizes power and efficiency. On a racetrack it will provide you zero benefit.

 

[rodslinger]

Be aware that the Focus uses a dual-clutch automated manual similar to VW's DSG. It's not a traditional torque converter automatic transmission. Shifts should be quicker since the next gear is pre-matched by the other clutch.

Does the Sonic's automatic transmission blip the throttle on a downshift? My Mazda3 did, and it seems that some MFRs include this feature and some don't.

I recall Ford patented a process that made their DCT have no loss in torque output during upshifts. Essentially a near instantaneous upshift when needed. I've rented a few and upshifts at WOT were very fast. They did seem near instantaneous. Otherwise it was a mediocre experience. Made funky noises during downshifts and coming to a stop. Downshifts for passing would sometimes seem awkward or in the wrong gear too.

And the 6AT in our Sonic does rev-match during downshifts. I've been pleased with it. Just wish the 1.4t had a little better engine braking. (or any at all really)

 

[bandita52]

when I have my car in "M" mode it seems to me that it accelerates a little more smoothly than if I had it in "D" mode. is this normal since I'm telling the car when to shift.

 

[xupthree60]

buy a manual, issue resolved.

 

[$ub$onic]

buy a manual, issue resolved.

Not everyone wants a manual....